Curse

Wtf Its A Monk · Jun 20, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wtf Its A Monk

/not signed....basically if they did this then all the people who missed legitament events such as the original holloween festival will be asking for the original pumpkin crown.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebaall

Totally invalid point WTF,

Care to explain how your example is relevent? How is asking to be treated fairly, and as an equal related to an event reward item?

This is a question of giving all the players the same access to in game items, and to correct in imbalanced biased market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Personette

I hate these slippery slope arguments. A leads to B, B is bad, therefore A is bad...but guess what? You need to justify how A will lead to B, otherwise the argument is not valid.

If you take any balanced scale - any fair solution - and skew it heavily out of balance, push it to an extreme, you end up with an unfair solution. By this kind of slippery slope reasoning, there is no such thing as a fair answer - because, in other circumstances, a different, unfair answer would have different, unfair results. And if that sounds like a really bad reason to prohibit a fair solution...that's because it is.

....well my response is relivent in the sense that you could consider the point in time that people could use this exploit an "event" and since some people did not have the game when this "event" happened they feel left out exactly as if someone missed the original holloween event they may feel left out and ask for the original headgear......I myself am more against it because if I was one of the people who was able to used this exploit I would hate to see my source of income ruined lol....but yea in a sense I guess it would be "fair"

amish lifeguard · Jun 20, 2007, 03:13 PM // 15:13

I started the first pre-searing forums and until they crashed, we had a few rules. One of the most controversial was whether or not to allow the trading of said items. In the end, we decided to allow it simply because it put us on the map. These items in a way give pre-searing meaning. They don't hurt anyone, they only assist those using them. Obviously, the dev team knows about these items. They have known about them for ages but have not taken them out of the game. Why? Simply because they are not causing problems. Why do you care if others have them? Are you jealous that they have them and you don't?

Gawa · Jun 20, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by amish lifeguard

Why do you care if others have them? Are you jealous that they have them and you don't?

I don't care if people have them.
Why ruin a post by making a comments about jealousy...if you read many responces the vein is that its nothing personal, its in terms of an overall balancing to counter the original exploit.

I DO care about the fact that there was an exploit that some people took advantage of and are even now still benefiting from that exploit.

I would say the same thing about any exploit in the game. Its nothing to do with pre-searing specifically. Its to do with 'right' and 'wrong'.
Its one thing to fix the root of the exploit (as was done) but then the aftereffects of the exploit also need dealt with (this has not been done)

Its simple - either remove said objects from anyone who got them by exploiting (i think it has been said that wont happen) or 'fix' the fact that those people can still benefit from exploiting, by giving everyone the ability to use them by geting them themselves if they want, thus no one can gain specially from it.

(and just for the record, i dont stay and play in pre-searing so i wont be wasting money on a kit in there anyway :P i just like to get my chars out into the big bad world as quickly as possible heh - i even got my last one through at level 2 lol)

Coridan · Jun 20, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by amish lifeguard

I started the first pre-searing forums and until they crashed, we had a few rules. One of the most controversial was whether or not to allow the trading of said items. In the end, we decided to allow it simply because it put us on the map. These items in a way give pre-searing meaning. They don't hurt anyone, they only assist those using them. Obviously, the dev team knows about these items. They have known about them for ages but have not taken them out of the game. Why? Simply because they are not causing problems. Why do you care if others have them? Are you jealous that they have them and you don't?

Dang right, i am jealous...I have no possible way of attaining these expert salvage kits...and the only reason some do is because of a bug not an event...I could understand if there was an event for the weekend where you could get expert kits for xx char carvings...and i missed it then fine...but it didn't happen that way...it happened through a bug not intentionally. Yes i agree that it doesn't affect me or how i play but I should be able to get the same assistance as the others who have these items how ever they were obtained. I really could understand the position of the people that have these if they had did any sort of work to get them....but they didn't plain and simple and there is no way around that.

EDIT: I am not really jealous as i don't play in Presearing anymore...I just think its bogus that some can benefit froma bug and still reap the rewards of the bug. I don't personally think Anet should put in expert kits... I think they should make all armor in presearing not take insignias/runes...problem solved except for the occasion weapon mod that someone wants to salvage.

Firebaall · Jun 20, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by bad person

I play in Pre a bit and I wouldn't mind seeing expert salvage kits there, but here's what I do have a problem with:

The OP takes advantage of an exploit and now could possibly get another player banned for taking advantage of the same exploit. Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

Well,

I wasn't playing Guild Wars back when the exploit was around. I started playing a few months after it was fixed. All the runes, and most of the items I have, were aquired from those that glitched the game. I just think enough is enough, and everbody should have access to the same content.

How would you feel, if you really wanted, say....FOW armour? You would say sure! But you have to work for it!

Now here's the catch: Lets say you had to buy the ecto to craft the armour from a select few players that had it. You couldn't farm it, and you couldn't purchase it from a material trader. You'd be at the mercy of those people. Sure you don't need FOW armour to play the game, but if you did want it (other people have access to it, so why not you?), you'd be stuck paying whatever they told you the price was.

There's also another supportive idea, that some people have hit on. Here's a copy n' paste from a post I made on another fan forum, where I've made a sister thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebaall

I really like the point that some of you hit on. We've seen people bring up the counter point that pre-searing is only meant as a "tutorial" for the rest of guild wars, right?

Well if that's the case, there could hardly be a more valuable tool than an expert-salvage kit in pre-searing! Forget the whole "black market", or "fair access" point of view (still massive points, imo). The first time I went into post-searing, I had no idea how salvage items worked beyond making iron ignots for my rinblade.

Being able to discover on a gentle learning curve how armour upgrades work, weapon mods, and insignias (now that they drop on the armours in pre-searing as well), would be ideal.

My main stance is still over the fair access issue, but this is a great supportive point.

Thanks to everyone so far.

The only way this will have a chance of being noticed by the developers, and support staff is to disscuss this in the public. I even appreciate those that are not supporting the idea. By their comments, it shows that they are either protecting their own self-interests, or that they lack the interest or knowledge of what's going on in the pre-searing world (heck, even most of those that don't concern themselves with pre-searing can see the unblanced condition, and easy solution).

Spazzer · Jun 20, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wtf Its A Monk

/not signed....basically if they did this then all the people who missed legitament events such as the original holloween festival will be asking for the original pumpkin crown.....

Oh how did I miss this little gem the first time around? I am laughing so hard.

Yes, yes! It wasn't an exploit! It was an event. It was just unanounced!

Farrell-Zander · Jun 20, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coridan

i don't mind the max weapons so much ...i mean if you have the edition where you can spawn the bonus items you can have max dmg weapons...

Ever seen a dervish or a paragon in pre?

The only ones which could max the req.

EDIT: Sorry forgot about the Year Edition

Coridan · Jun 20, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farrell-Zander

Ever seen a dervish or a paragon in pre?

The only ones which could max the req.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Guild_W...e_Year_Edition

bad person · Jun 20, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

You could have easily made your case to support without putting another person in jeopardy. Because of your quest for fairness, you've now put someone else in a position where they could be penalized for something that you've done yourself. Is that really fair?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebaall

How would you feel, if you really wanted, say....FOW armour? You would say sure! But you have to work for it!

Now here's the catch: Lets say you had to buy the ecto to craft the armour from a select few players that had it. You couldn't farm it, and you couldn't purchase it from a material trader. You'd be at the mercy of those people. Sure you don't need FOW armour to play the game, but if you did want it (other people have access to it, so why not you?), you'd be stuck paying whatever they told you the price was.

This is a poor comparison. If I want an unconditional weapon, aren't I also at the mercy of the person selling it? Why not petition A-Net to start dropping unconditional weapons again? While you're at it, ask them to make the drop rate for everything the same since items that are rare are more expensive and, well, that isn't really fair for someone who can't afford them, right?

As I said before, I don't necessarily have problem with expert salvage kits being introduced in pre-searing, but I do have a problem with you, having benefited from an exploit, basically reporting someone for benefiting from the same exploit.

Witchdoctor Avignon · Jun 20, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

From my point of view, where's the harm from the Dev. team side? You slightly modify the Merchant. You make Expert salvage available. Where's the negative?

All I can see are the positives. All my character slots are currently taken. With the addition of Expert salvages, I'd probably buy a new slot for a Pre toon. That's just added money in ANet's pocket.
I wonder how many people would go ahead and buy a new slot and maybe invest in the GoTY edition to get the weapons??? Give the LDoA title a shot.

Coridan · Jun 20, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Comparing this to anything that drops/ or has ever dropped is wrong. Unconditional weapons we meant to drop by design....not as a bug. The fact that they no longer drop was a natural game change. The devs decided they were unbalanced and stopped them from dropping. To me this boils down to the fact that the expert kits where obtained thru a BUG not thru game design...if they had originally had or ever had them for sale in presearing i would not complain that i can't get one now....but the fact is they were NEVER meant to be in presearing.

foo · Jun 20, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

/signed.

but I will not be surprised if anet will "keep" this update to a later date, when people will be bored, and Anet will have nothing planned in the horizon.

also, I think it would be proper if they were introduced as drops or a new quest reward, instead of just merch item.

Firebaall · Jun 20, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by bad person

You could have easily made your case to support without putting another person in jeopardy. Because of your quest for fairness, you've now put someone else in a position where they could be penalized for something that you've done yourself. Is that really fair?

This is a poor comparison. If I want an unconditional weapon, aren't I also at the mercy of the person selling it? Why not petition A-Net to start dropping unconditional weapons again? While you're at it, ask them to make the drop rate for everything the same since items that are rare are more expensive and, well, that isn't really fair for someone who can't afford them, right?

As I said before, I don't necessarily have problem with expert salvage kits being introduced in pre-searing, but I do have a problem with you, having benefited from an exploit, basically reporting someone for benefiting from the same exploit.

So, you have a problem with a person being in my report to an Official Support Team? Excuse me? It's not my job, or yours to decide where the line is drawn. If that person's actions cause any action against him (which is very unlikely in this case) that's his responsibility. I have every right to report any instance that I feel needs to be looked into.

As for your "While your at it" attitude, forget it. This is my concern. Having fair access to game content in this situation is what I feel needs attention. If you wish to address unconditional swords or whatever, please open another thread. I will be glad to read it and post there, if I have something valid to contribute.

Please keep this disscusion on topic. I have stated that I have runes, and other gear that I purchased from these people. Yes, I have benefited from those that cheated the system. I want everybody to have the same access the content that I have, without having to deal with the extortion. Make it fair for everyone one way or the other.

*edited for some bad spelling*
lol

Bruce Leeroy · Jun 20, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

/signed

I cant see any problems with adding expert salvage kits to pre merchants or collectors.

bad person · Jun 20, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebaall

As for your "While your at it" attitude, forget it. This is my concern. Having fair access to game content in this situation is what I feel need attention. If you wish to address unconditional swords or whatever, please open another thread. I will be glad to read it and post there, if I have something valid to contribute.

My bringing up of unconditional weapons was no less relevant than you bringing up ectos - neither have anything to do with the original issue. I was simply trying to point this out by bringing up something equally irrelevant.

Firebaall · Jun 20, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witchdoctor Avignon

From my point of view, where's the harm from the Dev. team side? You slightly modify the Merchant. You make Expert salvage available. Where's the negative?

All I can see are the positives. All my character slots are currently taken. With the addition of Expert salvages, I'd probably buy a new slot for a Pre toon. That's just added money in ANet's pocket.
I wonder how many people would go ahead and buy a new slot and maybe invest in the GoTY edition to get the weapons??? Give the LDoA title a shot.

Witchdoctor,

I for one, have purchased several character slots for perm-pre-searing characters. I have also purchased (2) GotY upgrades through the online store (specifically for the pre-searing advantage they provide).

In the end, I think adding some way to legally obtain an expert salvage kit in pre, will only create a deeper interest in this special part of the game and encourage more people to become part of it's permanent sub-culture. This is aside from the balance/fair access issue, that I've mainly focused on.

I really like the idea of a charr carving collector in the northlands, that offer expert salvage kits. However, I think that would require much more work than say....adding them to a single merchant (Foible's Fair, for instance).

Oofus · Jun 20, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

I have a perma-pre character who, by the way, has NO runes or any other post items. That having been said, I think A-Net should leave well enough alone. If you want expert salvage kits introduced to pre because a few people have runes, then why stop there? There are plenty of gold items in pre also as well as greens, so should they add gold drops and green weapons as well? Based on the logic of the OP, where does it end? I understand your displeasure with those who exploited the old guild hall glitch but whats done is done, it gives no advantage to those who have them other then vanity, if you need a rune or max weapon to get around in pre then you realy should just move on to post searing. Adding expert kits, gold and green weapons to pre would serve no purpose other then to make pre just like post except smaller. If you want runes and golds and elite skills, etc, etc, then go to post, problem solved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firebaall

I even appreciate those that are not supporting the idea. By their comments, it shows that they are either protecting their own self-interests, or that they lack the interest or knowledge of what's going on in the pre-searing world

By the way, that is an extreamly ignorant and quite frankly wrong statement. As I said I have none of those items in pre, and I can guarantee you I have at least just as much "knowledge of" and "interest" in "what's going on in the pre-searing world". Try to refrain from such comments when you clearly have no idea what other people think or why they think it.

.

Darksun · Jun 20, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

/singed.

I enjoy Pre I think it's fun. The Addition of Insignias & Runs would be great(and would stop the insane prices in pre without overpowering the players). It is the "training" part of the game.. might as well show people how to salvage/use runes.

keistje · Jun 20, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

/signed

I have a character I'm going for LDoA on, so I suppose I'm not exactly non-biased, but why bother to have armor with runes in it drop if there's nothing you can do with them? I hate to sell or salvage them, though I've had to, since my inventory is tiny. But what is the point of them dropping? Most newbies aren't going to understand what they are, and are just going to sell them or salvage them for materials. I agree with those who say that this would just be another form of learning, which is the whole point of pre. Let them learn about runes *before* they get into post and still salvage armor with runes in it for materials because they don't know any different.

Burning Blade · Jun 20, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

/signed

BTW, average people earn hundred of plats or even a million in Pre-Searing to buy such things? how? Killing monsters that drop 2-5g again and again?